User talk:Jza84

Contents 1 Shoving rabbits where you shouldn't 2 The WIGAN Article 3 Talk:The_Dark_Side_of_the_Moon#Cover_images_edit_warring 4 WikiProject Greater Manchester July Newsletter, Issue XVII 5 Hi 6 Cornish map 7 Chew Stoke graphic

[edit] Shoving rabbits where you shouldn't

I wondered if you'd give this a quick read and let me know what you think, before I copy it to Mary Tofts as a replacement? Its a fascinating tale, I just hope I can do it justice. I need to add a bit more about exactly how she did it (the icky stuff). Parrot of Doom (talk) 22:03, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

BTW "would Medical hoax nail this?" - I was sorely tempted to write "Shatting rabbits". Parrot of Doom (talk) 22:19, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

I was unsure myself! It's a curious tale eh!? -- you certainly have a knack for the unorthodox! I've put a couple of "Clarifyme" tags in, but after them are hidden messages with some questions (if you open up the article for editting you'll see them). Looks very good though; I think my minor changes are done. :)

As a trade, I wonder if you'd be so kind as to take a look at User:Jza84/Sandbox5 for me, and give some pointers/ideas/references?

P.S. I'm tempted to add "See also Rabbit vibrator"... :D --Jza84 |  Talk  23:17, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

No problem, it'll have to be tomorrow aft/eve now, worky tomorrow :) I think I have enough source material to make an FA of this one, although it needs a lot of tidying up, and a fair bit of work on the social commentary aspects. Parrot of Doom (talk) 23:31, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

No probs! Catch you tomorrow hopefully. --Jza84 |  Talk  23:51, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

I've had a quick look and made a few obvious minor corrections, and added the odd question. I'm presuming that this will eventually be a somewhat...colossal...article? Parrot of Doom (talk) 21:58, 1 July 2009 (UTC)

The colossal-ist ever I think, perhaps! The Cornish people article has been really difficult to keep in check (just take a look at it and its talk page), which is a shame because it's an interesting tale and interesting people. English people should've been far better than it is by now - I find it curious that real live English editors haven't had pride enough in their history or culture to write up an encyclopedic account of their people.

That said, I think I did a fair job of British people (even if I do say so myself!), so I think it is possible to make these viable and sustainable articles. It seems a shame that WP:ENGLAND is streets behind WP:GM and so there's no leadership or proper organisation or team spirit for something like English people to take off as a collaborative project.

With British people, I found that once the lead was ultra tight, encompassing and neutral, the rest was easy. As with most of these big high-stakes articles, large swathes of users only seem interested in the lead.

Thanks for the nudges though. Any other ideas? Interested at all in this kind of topic? --Jza84 |  Talk  22:15, 1 July 2009 (UTC)

Just looking at all those incorrectly formatted citation templates makes me cry. I don't have any photographs I could help you with (got some nice ones of the Isle of Man though if you fancy that). I had in the back of my mind that the Irish, Scots, Welsh and Cornish were Celt-ish folk that were pushed to the edges by the Romans, but didn't really know much more about it than that. You might care to have a casual look around in here, a book I discovered lately which has some very hi-res pics of lots of interesting people. You may find the odd Cornish person in there - such searches often lead me in all kinds of strange directions, an article I fancy creating soon is Lucina Sine Concubitu (google it). Sooterkin is another. I've no experience of writing something so encompassing as "X people", so can't really offer any advice there. I will however add your sandbox to my watchlist, and have the odd fiddle with it (to correct minor things) Parrot of Doom (talk) 22:27, 1 July 2009 (UTC)

Sounds great. I trust your judgement entirely, so dive in that sandbox if you want. I will also take a look at the book for some ideas (I need some more Cornish people for a montage I'm working on).

You make an interesting point too though, and perhaps unintentionally so. On the sandbox talk page I was told that my proposal/draft is "stating the obvious" too much. However, I think that a great many people - English and/or British - don't actually know about the Celtic claims of the Cornish. I suspect that many also don't even know the "national myth" of the Anglo-Saxon invasion of Britain being the influence it is. And I know that our international readers wouldn't know anything about any of it! I'll have to crack on and try and get both these leads perfect.... but.... there is resistance to change.... --Jza84 |  Talk  22:39, 1 July 2009 (UTC)

Well there's stating the obvious (a criticism which is irrelevant in an encyclopaedia), and there's being patronising - and I didn't consider the lead to be either of those. Are there any extant remains of ancient Cornish people that can illustrate the article? Roundhouses, etc? Parrot of Doom (talk) 22:49, 1 July 2009 (UTC)

There's the near lost Cornish language, and a tradition of Celtic crosses in the county. The Constitutional status of Cornwall (which relies heavily on spinning ambiguous, centuries-old documents) seems to advance the case for a distinct "fifth" home nation in Britain and that the people are distinct as evidenced from these literary relics. As for Roundhouses, I'm not sure. But that's given me a thought - User:Nev1 is interested in Iron Age ruins and relics.... :D --Jza84 |  Talk  22:58, 1 July 2009 (UTC)

• I think that perhaps many of us battle-scarred veterans prefer to steer clear of the obvious idiot-magnet articles like "People of ...". I'm even having second, third, and fourth thoughts, about trying to take Manchester Martyrs any further. Having said that, your British people tour de force does prove that it can be done Jza84. --Malleus Fatuorum 23:03, 1 July 2009 (UTC)

Thank you. And I agree entirely (now I've come to think of it!) that these pages are indeed "obvious idiot-magets". I think British people was, strangely, always going to be the easiest of all our "native" X-people pages - because it's a kind of institutional identity that can be quantified pretty easily. I think English people would be the next easiest (in my opinion only) simply because there are plenty of level headed English editors, but also because as a people, they are the most comfortable with their identity (or so I've read)... the Celts are going to be harder, because, much of their history is a reaction to Englishness, as well as 19th/20th century nationalist revivals (which introduced great inventions like Cornish tartan) and a poor understanding of Celtic history.

Something like Manchester Martyrs must be a nightmare - but I'd be determined that we could tackle it en masse to weed out any nonsense.... then again, anything tagged with an Irish WikiProject banner seems to fall at the first hurdle. I'd never dream of editting Irish people, despite them apparently being a "Western European ethnic group from Western Europe"... --Jza84 |  Talk  23:15, 1 July 2009 (UTC)

A sense of identity, national or otherwise, can be a vague construct but when it is perceived to be under threat it becomes solidified to unite people. It's one reason why, for example, St David's Day, St Andrew's Day, and St Patrick's Day are pretty popular and a matter of national pride, but St George's Day is usually slips under the radar. National identity is taken very seriously in some parts, and as Malleus points out, it makes sense to avoid unnecessary trouble.

As for Celts, I'm leaning towards the idea that it's almost a modern (19th century) concept as a result of Wales, Scotland, and Ireland wanting to distinguish themselves from England in the British Empire. Celts have been referred to in ancient texts, but I think the academic climate at the moment is leaning towards the idea that there was a "Celtic culture" is a fallacy. There was no homogeneous Celtic culture, and "Celts" from the north of England probably wouldn't have had much in common with those in northern France, so why should they be grouped together?

According to the ancient geographer Ptolemy, the Dumnonii occupied south west England, including Cornwall. Like the rest of England, they had some hill forts – the most prominent type of Iron Age monument. Any existing round houses would be reconstructions I'm afraid, but there may be some pics of hill forts on flickr. Nev1 (talk) 00:05, 2 July 2009 (UTC)

I think that's absolutely right, and I'm also reminded of the Victorian reinvention of the Scottish tartans. --Malleus Fatuorum 00:15, 2 July 2009 (UTC)

(ec) To Jza84: I'd agree with your thoughts on English people and English editors. Of all the "nations" making up the UK the English are far and away the least concerned and most relaxed about their identity. You've inspired me to grasp the nettle that is the Irish articles, at least those within the scope of the GM project anyway. We'll see how it goes. --Malleus Fatuorum 00:09, 2 July 2009 (UTC)

As always, we seem to all agree - and rightly so. There must be something in our region's water!

Our water is soft, and so are we. ;-) --Malleus Fatuorum 01:45, 2 July 2009 (UTC)

To Nev1: I'm not a big Celtist. Although I have roots in Scotland, I'm quite comfortable in knowing that my Scottish side alone is a composite of Norse, Gael, Pict, Norman, Angle (a lot of Angle) and Irish. The revivalist movements are interesting, noteworthy and in someways commendable, but you're right about them being a little far fetched. Brythonic and Romano-British history - now that does seem interesting and very undervalued. --Jza84 |  Talk  00:25, 2 July 2009 (UTC)

Just to intrude briefly on the Manchester Mafia :-) This might be useful as a more public conversation as it impacts on a lot of articles. Its pretty clear that that the Victorian period romanticised the concept of a "celt" and we get both silly hats (Wales) and Kilts etc during that period. Celtic nations (to take one really bad article) are a concept from the same period. The developments around the post Roman Period are more interesting. Roman-British culture does persist in practice (and language) through into Wales, Brittany and Cornwall to a lesser extent. There is some interesting work to be done about how the Victorian romanticisation of the Celts influenced the development of nationalism in Wales and Scotland (Ireland of course was very different). In Wales there is the additional tension between Chartism/Socialism/Internationalism in the increasingly industrial south and rural Welsh speaking areas where nationalism tended to be isolationist in nature. Irish culture (with aspects of Scottish) is another manifestation with the Synod of Whitby a significant event in its own right. I do think its a mistake to mix up the various Irish questions here. Cromwell, the Famine, The Boyne etc. etc. all influence a series of developments that have little to do with "Celtic per se". Scotland even before James did not see the same antagonism that characterised English-Irish cultural "exchange". I could go on but won't! Having some form of reference material might be useful for editors, a lot of the debates are informed by various myths (especially from some North American Editors). What we have is a messy, evolutionary process without the over precise boundaries created by enthusiastic editors over informed by myth --Snowded ^TALK 05:36, 2 July 2009 (UTC)

These are sentiments I share entirely. The myths are important elements of the culture of these people(s), but they need to be put into context at all times. I think in that respect you're absolutely right Snowded that some users are coming to WP with perhaps some overenthusiasm and misinformation about their heritage and how they should project it on others. The truth is, the truth itself is a far more interesting account, particularly for a nation like the Welsh - they really do hold a linguistic legacy that is Pre-Roman, but they are also part of the Anglo-Celtic culture that persists in the whole of Britain, apart from the South East (AFAICT).

I've come that bit closer to finishing the "first" proper draft of a revised Cornish people article, at User:Jza84/Sandbox5, and would welcome any input once again. :) --Jza84 |  Talk  11:35, 2 July 2009 (UTC)

(od) Outside observation Perhaps unbeknownst to you, this section was edited immediately following an unusually long 52 minute lapse in the availability of the English Wikipedia on June 30, making it only the third edit on the entire site after the lapse (see [1]). Its title brought me to read the content and I have been pleasantly impressed to witness its progression since Monday. The level of discourse and detail, and the obvious care taken, are exemplary. Although I am merely a Yank kibitzer, I would agree with Snowded that this discussion is worthy of public consumption, at least from my point of view. Great stuff. Sswonk (talk) 06:22, 2 July 2009 (UTC)

Thank you. It's nice to have outside input and praise in this way - I don't think it's ever happened, to me at least. Hopefully, once I've got a draft or two to propose (ones that are built collaboratively), I aim to propose them and share some of the above with a wider audience. That said, as an outsider, I'd love you to share your thoughts about the first half of User:Jza84/Sandbox5 as a replacement for the existing Cornish people lead. :) --Jza84 |  Talk  11:39, 2 July 2009 (UTC)

[edit] The WIGAN Article

What is written in the Wigan article is rubbish, to say the least.

To mention that there are over 1000 mine shafts within a 5 mile radius of Wigan is simply irrelavent to an article about the town of Wigan. For instance, there has been around 10 coal mines sunk in Wigan, ever, and all of these were sunk on fault lines and took coal from under neighbouring towns. There is no accessible coal seams under the town of Wigan due to strata faults (believe British Coal geologists, not locals who haven't a clue).

Joe Gormley was born in Ashton in Makerfield, BEFORE the 1972 local government act. He worked in St.Helens Area coal mines and was the Union representative for that area until he became the north west, then the national representative.

If you wish to be accurate, Pemberton is NOT Wigan. Pemberton WAS, along with Wigan, a part of the 'County Borough of Wigan'. This was disbanded as a result of the 1972 local government act (into force 1974) and the TWO townships were included in the Metropolitan Borough OF Wigan as part of the Metropolitan County of Greater Manchester.

Even the local authority, Wigan Metropolitan Borough Council (or Wigan Council for short) acknowledge the fact that Wigan and Pemberton are two separate townships, referring to them politocally as the 'Former Wigan County Borough' yet Wigan and Pemberton 'townships'.

It's wrong to have an article on Wigan as a town, yet include historical information and people which are relevant to the surrounding towns BEFORE the 1972 local government act brought them all together for administrative purposes ONLY!

In a nutshell, if it's not from or about Wigan, it shouldn't be on the Wigan article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.239.71.235 (talk) 12:17, 2 July 2009 (UTC)

I have cleaned up your message with this sig. Also, I have responded at Talk:Wigan and your ip's talk page. --Jza84 |  Talk  16:46, 2 July 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Talk:The_Dark_Side_of_the_Moon#Cover_images_edit_warring

There was an ickle argument about album covers images, so I started that section. What's the usual procedure for some kind of declaration of a consensus, and archiving the discussion? Parrot of Doom (talk) 11:30, 4 July 2009 (UTC)

Well, it looks like the matter is resolved and the the majority of the involved have agreed upon a way forwards. If it's a recurring matter, then a FAQ template might be useful (see for example Talk:United Kingdom). If it resurfaces I'd just point them to the discussion and that there is a consensus. Wikipedia:What is consensus? might have some pointers but we're probably going OTT in this case. An overwhelming majority seem to agree here (AFAICT). --Jza84 |  Talk  19:51, 4 July 2009 (UTC)

Thanks, its 4 v 2 so would appear to have been resolved, as you say. Parrot of Doom (talk) 11:21, 6 July 2009 (UTC)

[edit] WikiProject Greater Manchester July Newsletter, Issue XVII

The Greater Manchester WikiProject Newsletter

Would you like to write the next newsletter for WP:GM?? Please nominate yourself at WT:GM! New editors are always welcome! The WikiProject Greater Manchester Newsletter Issue XVII - July 2009 March issue Got any suggestions? — Add them here Project News Promoted articles: Cheadle Hulme is a suburb of Stockport that formed from several small hamlets, rather than growing around a church which was usual for medieval villages, although there is evidence of activity dating back to the Bronze Age. The Cheadle Hulme railway station was opened in 1845 and was the second railway station in the settlement. June's DYK?: Did you know that after the collapse of the Broughton Suspension Bridge in 1831, the British military introduced the order to "break step" when soldiers were crossing a bridge? Featured on the Did you know? section on 6 June 2009. Other news: Recently Salford was turned into a disambiguation page with the article on the settlement moved to Salford, Greater Manchester. This will hopefully make it clearer to the reader that Salford, Greater Manchester, and the City of Salford are not the same thing. Just remember to specify which Salford next time you're adding a wikilink to an article! Although it wasn't technically this month, list of people from Wigan was created on 2 July, and any help populating the list with sourced names would be great. It's one of nine such list for the boroughs in Greater Manchester (Bury doesn't have a list yet) and they all need populating. There is currently a discussion on our project's importance scale which has been adopted by WP:YORKS, and what it should cover. Please feel free to join in, the more people are involved the better! Remember to be careful about editors claiming places are still in Lancashire, today I had to revert someone insisting that Leigh isn't in Greater Manchester and recently the Friends of Real Lancashire voiced their dislike of the Lancashire article so this issue isn't going to go away. Just remember that the project watchlist can help us catch vandalism and is worth checking from time to time. WT:GM: The project's talk page is a forum for discussion and to keep up to date with the latest project developments and initiatives put it on your watchlist! Recently there have been discussions on articles to be deleted, the congestion charge, how to get members involved and working together, and plenty of other stuff. Aims Our extant short-term project aims: Obtain GA status for Salford. Obtain GA status for Stockport Obtain GA status for Kersal Moor. Obtain GA status for Manchester city centre. Obtain GA status for Congestion charging in Greater Manchester and Greater Manchester Transport Innovation Fund (TiF). Get a lead/static image in every infobox of every town in the county. Recently another aim was added: bringing Stockport to GA standard. It's currently C-class and has some well developed sections. It will be a difficult task, but worthwhile considering it's Greater Manchester's third largest settlement. Also, the importance of bringing Salford to GA has been emphasised; it's currently B-class and should be the easiest of our aims to accomplish, although it's been there for a long time. Let's see if we can put this one to rest soon. Member News No new members joined the project in June and there are 45 active members of WikiProject Greater Manchester (with a further 20 members inactive since 1 January 2009). The project is always looking for new members, and if you spot an editor who makes good changes to Greater Manchester related articles why not invite them to join up by adding this template to their talk page: {{SUBST:Welcome WPGM}}. The project compared In June, WP:LON has a massive upsurge in the number of FAs, with some great work by Iridescent in promoting a swathe of bridge articles to FA. WP:YORKS has over taken WP:GM in terms of GAs, and for the first time since June 2008 (when WP:LON had the lead), WP:GM is not the project with most GAs. In June, the Derwent Valley Mills became a GA and is WP:DERBY's first GA although there are more likely candidates in the pipeline. WP:CHES continues to perform strongly considering it has few active editors, and in June John Douglas (architect) was promoted to FA and there is currently a FLC. In June, there was discussion at WT:MERSEY about how to generate more audited content (ie: GAs and FAs) and since then one article has been promoted to GA, there is one GAC and other articles being prepared for GAC.   GTRM LOND YORK MRSY CHES DERB FA 39 32 24 8 5 0 A 0 1 0 0 1 0 GA 44 32 45 12 23 1 B 106 230 191 32 88 37 C 115 59 246 108 71 71 Start 740 1823 2211 605 528 485 Stub 771 1236 3688 498 454 707 List 52 80 132 23 29 25 Unassessed 0 2825 1 305 0 1 Total 1867 6318 6538 1591 1199 1327 Reminders... Images! There are some good images around, but more are still needed if we're going to get a "lead/static image in every infobox of every town in the county"! The requested photographs category lists some of the articles needing images. Articles needing attention Please remember that the list of stubs needing expansion and the list of articles needing cleanup are in permanent need of attention. Written by Nev1, based on a template by Jza84 | Single-Page View

Delivered on 4 July 2009 by Nev1. If you do not wish to receive future newsletters, please add two *s by your username on the Project Mainpage. Nev1 (talk) 19:17, 4 July 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Hi

Hi there, dont know if you'll remember me. I spent a great deal of time on the Wigan articles (alongside you) a couple of years ago but left for various reasons. I've got more available time these days so can devote a little more to Wiki. Since I was last actively editing I have accumulated knowledge on other areas of Greater Manchester and areas of Yorkshire, specifically Leeds. I hope to work alongside you again soon. Thanks Man2 (talk) 09:53, 7 July 2009 (UTC)

Yep, do indeed remember. I know you worked hard on Wigan related stuff and had some troubles with a certain ip editor. Just let me know if you need a hand. At WP:GM, we're currently working on Salford, Greater Manchester, Stockport and the Moors Murders. I'm also hoping to get the Metropolitan Borough of Oldham upto speed. --Jza84 |  Talk  11:17, 7 July 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Cornish map

Hi there, I've knocked together an SVG version of the map you wanted vectorised, take a look at File:Cornish language shift.svg. If you think it needs adjusting in any way then don't hestitate to ask. Regards, --Joowwww (talk) 10:42, 7 July 2009 (UTC)

Edit: I've also been trying to think of more people for the infobox image that are still alive, and one name that came up was Phil Vickery, who has often talked of being a proud Cornishman. Thinking of more famous Cornish women is proving to be a bit harder. --Joowwww (talk) 10:51, 7 July 2009 (UTC)

Wow thanks Joowwww. I thought I'd have to wait weeks, months for a map like that! My only concern is that the numbers (what we recognise as successive years), won't automatically be interpretted correctly by readers. However, that was a problem with the original - your map is obviously a far superior piece of work. :)

I was hoping to find a good Cornish sportman, and preferably a Rugby player. Phil Vickery is perfect. Caroline Fox is the only woman from Cornwall with historical significance and a free-to-use photograph. A Google search throws up that she is Cornish. So, if that's two, we only need another four to get 21 persons, comparable to the English, Scots, British and Welsh pages (I'm a sucker for consistency).

I will certainly use your map. Thanks very much for the support - I was expected alot of resistance. --Jza84 |  Talk  11:31, 7 July 2009 (UTC)

Perhaps an animated map would solve that problem, perhaps something along the lines of File:UN member states animation.gif? --Joowwww (talk) 13:08, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

What a brilliant idea. Yes, I think that would be even more fantastic.... but.... do you know how to make it so? :S --Jza84 |  Talk  13:12, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Chew Stoke graphic

Hi, Thanks for the comment - I'm not a graphics expert but I don't know of any advantage in getting File:Chewstoke.gif redrawn. What is included is the original graphic used by the parish council & used with the permission of the artist.— Rod ^talk 19:12, 9 July 2009 (UTC)