Talk:White British

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This article was nominated for deletion on 19 August 2007. The result of the discussion was no consensus.

Contents 1 All Jewish people? 2 Wilde 3 Margaret Thatcher Picture? 4 Is this article correct? 5 Why does this article exist? 6 Ethnic group 7 Use of the word indigenous 8 infobox 9 25% 10 infobox 11 Major Religion

[edit] All Jewish people?

Jewish people are also defined to be White British by the United Kingdom Census.

Does this mean Oona King qualifies as white?! Timrollpickering 17:40, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

White refers to what people identify themselves. Dark skinned Southern Euriopeans are classed as white and so are Turks. A fair looking high cast Indian could choose to tick that he/she is white if they wanted, boosting the white population even higher! 92% white? more likely in its mid 80s.

I am, frankly, quite surprised that the Turks are classified as white in Britain. It seems that Britain is vastly different from other European countries in this respect. --217.172.29.5 20:16, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Wilde

Is Wilde the best choice for a picture? Under modern rules, given his political views, he might well be classified as 'White Irish' (people in NI who identify as Irish are). 134.226.1.62 11:50, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Margaret Thatcher Picture?

Margaret Thatcher Picture? --Collingwood50 (talk) 19:57, 10 February 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Is this article correct?

In the 2001 census the category 'White British' is a sub-category of the group 'White'. The others being 'White Irish' and 'Other White'. The information given relates to the whole group i.e. 'White' as opposed to 'White British'. For example 92.1% of the population is 'White British' + 'White Irish' + 'Other White' = 92.1% if you see what I mean. Therefore this article doesn't actually descibe the group 'White British' at all. I appreciate that this is entirely down to the ONS refusing to break down the figures for the 'White' group, even though they routinely do this for other groups.

Romper 01:44, 3 December 2006 (UTC)romperRomper 01:44, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

The numbers shown are incorrect - 92% is the entire white population (White British, White Irish and White Other). See here[1], for a closer representation. --sony-youth 15:35, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

Actually the article now claims that 92% (54 million) of the population is White, not White British, and has done for a little while. I know because I made the change. Be that as it may, there is a source that claims that there were 50 million "White British" people in the UK in 2001 (this would be about 86%). The source is not more specific that this figure.[2] with a link to The different experiences of the United Kingdom’s ethnic and religious populations. Alun 14:16, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Why does this article exist?

For the life of me I don't understand why this article was created. I can think of no real reason for it to exist. All it does is give a few unimportant details from the 2001 census, that are available online from the ONS anyway. The term "White British" is only applicable to the census anyway, no one refers to themselves as "White British", and certainly no one ever considers their ethnic group "White British". We're all either English people, Welsh people, Scottish people, Irish people or just plain British. Most of the information from the census is wrong. For example it claimed that the average "White British" household had 2.4 children, when the citation clearly stated that the average "White British" household was 2.4 people. It's a very badly written article, why does nearly every sentense start with "White British"? I'm thinking of AfDing this article, it has no merit, "White British" could just as well be redirected to Briton. Alun 21:44, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

Wobbs, I agree with you man, and I dont know who is creating all these Asian, White/European, and Black/African "ethnic group" articles which is borderline stupidity if you ask me. I mean articles on the individual races is one thing, but its not like these groups are some fully cohesive group in each of these countries. However, not every British Isles person that is White is English, Irish, Welsh, Cornish or Scottish, and theres numerous White immigrant or immigrant-descended groups like Arabs, Berbers, Jews, Italians, Germans, Dutch, Norwegians, Spanish, etc. 69.157.107.88 21:59, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

I agree there is no point in this article it nothing more than details from the census White British is not an ethnic group. --Barry^talk 11:18, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

This article should be nothing more than a disambiguation page, stating that 'White British' is a census term, and directing readers to the pages of the English, Irish, Welsh and Scottish people. I don't know why on earth Dark Tea (and all you other fools) are in such a rush to create new ethnic groups out of thin air. Let's just get a bunch of people, put them somewhere, and name them based on colour and location rather the genealogy, history and heritage (sigh).

It's revisionism on Wikipedia. There is no such thing as a 'White British' ethnic group. There has never been one, not in a thousand years, and there won't be on in the next, so why is it masquerading as one? Michael ^talk 01:30, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

"White British" is not a census category in Scotland. The choices were White Scottish or White Other. This article is about a census category, not an ethnic group. That should also be clearer. Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 13:01, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

That's inaccurate and your conclusion is similarly so. The two categories offered in place of "White British" were "White Scottish" and "Other White British" (reference here - so White British was still an implied category and is used for statistical purposes by incorporating both subcategories in the Scottish census - it just happened to be more specific than the one in England and Wales. --Breadandcheese 19:07, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Ethnic group

An infobox for ethnic groups was removed recently on the grounds that "White British" were not an ethnic group. Considering this tag is applied fairly liberally to other groups, exactly what denies it this status?--Breadandcheese 01:32, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

• White British is an evelop name for people of indigenous British Isles origins - English, Irish, Scottish, Welsh; so where is the article for the 3 million "Other Whites" which envelop the large Polish, Greek, Italian and German communities across Britain??? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.150.154.247 (talk) 19:55, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

If there is an infobox for Black British and Asian British, why not one for White British? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 138.253.235.218 (talk) 13:47, 13 January 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Use of the word indigenous

Really ought to be removed, since White Britons are not indigenous to the British Isles. Even if you go back as far the Celts, you'll find that they were migrants who traveled west from Celtic centres on the Rhine. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 172.188.86.230 (talk) 15:59, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

That could be said about all "indigenous" groups around the world, yet they would be offended by you saying that they are not really the "indigenous" people of the land, if you said that. Dlpkbr (talk) —Preceding comment was added at 12:03, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

I agree. I think the use of the word indigenous should actually be encouraged in all areas. "White Britons travelled west" - everyone came from somewhere else. We - native Britons, those who are British by ethnicity - are the indigenous people and we are the majority and as far as 50 years ago, 99% of the population of Great Britain was indigenous and we are one of the most homogenous indigenous populations around today. Look at the last major wave of non-British white migration to Britain with the Normans - this was the time that indigenous Polynesians were still finishing their colonisation of the Pacific. Does this make them less indigenous? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.212.150.190 (talk) 10:56, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

This article is about the category used on UK census forms. These forms do not use the word indigenous. The article is about demographics, it is not an article about either (1) ethnic identity (white British is not an ethnonym) or (2) the descendants of a putative prehistorical population of Britain (which would be indigenous in nature). Keep the article relevant to the subject at hand. If you want to contribute to articles that do discuss the various ethnic groups/nations of Great Britain and Ireland, or the various phases of colonisation and population movements out of and into this geographical region then I think the articles you are looking for are as follows:

1. Genetic history of the British Isles
2. Settlement of Great Britain and Ireland
3. English people
4. Irish people
5. Scottish people
6. Welsh people

Cheers. Alun (talk) 06:15, 13 January 2009 (UTC)

• The article might be about the category but the category of white British as contained in this article entirely covers the indigenous population and not otherwise. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.134.188.234 (talk) 07:23, 13 January 2009 (UTC)

Well that depends what you mean by "indigenous" doesn't it? For example do you count English people? Some theories postulate that English people are the descendants of a mass migration that occurred about 1500 years ago. Does that make them alien invaders, or doe sit make them indigenous? How long does a people have to be living in a region to be considered "indigenous"? The word indigenous is overused and little understood. The UN uses it to mean something like "the original population that existed in a region prior to a mass recent colonisation", so Native Australians are indigenous and native Americans are indigenous, but the UN would not count the white population of the UK as indigenous, see Indigenous peoples. Besides all this we are an encyclopaedia, we don't include original research, we simply report what our reliable sources tell us. What you want to do is include the word indigenous because you believe that the term "white British" is equivalent to the term "indigenous to the British Isles". That's not what our source says, the census makes no claim regarding the origins of the population of the UK, that's not what it's for. Alun (talk) 04:34, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

[edit] infobox

An infobox is needed here. Lord of Moria _Talk ^Contribs 14:33, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

Do you think it would be a good idea to have an infobox for UK census categories? We would have to have a different infobox per census because the categories change from census to census. It's not a bad idea though, an infobox dealing with demographics that can be used in any UK census category article might be an useful thing. Would you like to have a go at making one? I just removed an ethnic group info box, that's for the simple reason that this article is not about an ethnic group. As it says clearly at the head of this article "This article is about the UK census classification", and census classifications are not the same as ethnic identity. Alun (talk) 19:57, 10 January 2009 (UTC)

[edit] 25%

"25% of the total UK population or approximately 14 million of the white British claim Irish descent"

Is that 25% "white British" or 25% of "white", "white Scottish", "Other White British" and "white British"? (taken from the earlier paragraph: "In Scotland the classification was broken down into two different categories: 'White Scottish' and 'Other White British'. The classification did not appear in Northern Ireland where the comparable classification is described simply as 'White'.")

If only white British then it should say "25% of the total English and Welsh population ..." --PBS (talk) 10:13, 10 January 2009 (UTC)

Looking at the citations, I think I have found the source: Ethnicity & Identity. AFAICT the 25% is a misreading. "People from the White British group were more likely to describe their national identity as English (58 per cent) rather than British (36 per cent)." which makes at least 94% do not describe themselves as Irish and that does not include Scottish and Welsh (as shown in the graph). I think the misunderstanding is that about 25% of the "white Irish" consider themselves British not that 25% of the UK population consider themselves claim Irish decent. --PBS (talk) 10:39, 10 January 2009 (UTC)

Wow, nice piece of deductive reasoning ;) Alun (talk) 06:17, 13 January 2009 (UTC)

[edit] infobox

If there are infoboxes for British Mixed, British Black and British Asian, why not for White British, they are also racial categories for the census, not ethnic groups! It's not fair! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 138.253.235.218 (talk) 13:51, 13 January 2009 (UTC)

So fix it - this is an encyclopaedia anyone can edit. If there isn't an infoxbox for White British it isn't due to some global conspiracy to keep White British people down-trodden and oppressed, it's because no one's created it yet. Cheers, This flag once was red^propaganda_deeds 13:57, 13 January 2009 (UTC)

The infoboxes are for ethnic groups. This article is not about an ethnic group, it is about a category in the UK census. White British is not an ethnonym, no one ever refers to themselves as "white British", usually one would refer to themselves as British, English Welsh etc, and we have ethnic group articles for these groups, see British people, Welsh people, English people, Scottish people etc. British Asian and Black British are ethnic groups, members of these groups would refer to themselves by these names, they are proper ethnonyms, see how these articles don't start by simply stating that this is a census classification, but hat it has a use distinct from that used by the UK state. As for Mixed British, I agree, it shouldn't have an infobox because it's not a proper ethnic group. On the other hand, if you want to create an infobox for use in census category articles, then that would be a good idea, but let's not confuse demographic articles with articles about ethnic groups. Thanks. Alun (talk) 04:23, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

What does 'ethnic' mean? Some British people and English people have roots and cultures from other countries where their parents and grandparents are from, like Pakistani Britons and Indian Britons or Russian Britons. White British means someone with no foreign ancestry or ancestral culture to identify with. Even though the culture of young White British or English people is African American, i.e. rap and hip-hop, they are not descended from them. White British people are not considered an ethnic group in their own right but non-White British people are. English people are not an ethnic group according to Wikipedia, but all British people born in England! A lot of Asian or Black English people do not identify with English culture but with the culture of their parents country. They call themselves English whilst rejecting England's culture for their ancestral one!!! That is why the English cannot be called an ethnic group coz even though most are Whites, it includes everyone born in the country. Even most White English people prefer American or French culture to the English one, as it is seen as old-fashioned and embarrassing. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.159.107.81 (talk) 22:04, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

Ok let's take the comment "White British means someone with no foreign ancestry or ancestral culture to identify with." Does that mean that someone with, say a single Irish grandparent can never be considered "white British"? Who says that? The Census doesn't have strict "rules" here, it doesn't say, what you claim in this statement. What about someone from the Near East? Someone from Iraq may consider themselves white (I know this from experience). If someone from Iraq did consider themselves white, and also did consider themselves British, what is to stop them from describing themselves as "white British" on the census? There is no law here, the census is recording how people see themselves. It doesn't provide strict rules about how one can classify oneself, and one certainly can't be prosecuted if one defines oneself as "white British" even if one has a significant amount of non-British ancestry. What about people like Rosalind Franklin? Is she "white"? Why is she not British? What about someone like Peter Ustinov, he certainly described himself as British, and he was "white" according to how these things are usually determined in the UK. How about the descendants of the Hugenots? Relatively speaking that could represent "the largest wave of immigration of a single community into Britain ever". Are their descendants "white British"? What does "foreign ancestry or ancestral culture" mean? If we are to believe some historians and archaeologists, there was a mass migration of "Anglo-Saxons" to Britain in the sixth century AD, does that represent a "foreign ancestry or ancestral culture"? I don't believe so, I ask simply for clarity. It seems to me that you choose selectively when to claim someone as British or white, with so called white people more likely to be considered British in your eyes even if they do have a foreign ancestry or culture (e.g. is Jewishness a foreign culture?).

Then let's take the statement "Even though the culture of young White British or English people is African American, i.e. rap and hip-hop, they are not descended from them." Well no, but nearly all African Americans have some European ancestry, about 30% of African American men have Y chromosome types usually associated with Europe, and the average African American has between 15-20% European ancestry, in the context of slavery, that probably means that amongst African Americans there is probably a significant British ancestry. So we certainly share a biological relatedness with many African-Americans just as we do with many European Americans.

Then there's "White British people are not considered an ethnic group in their own right but non-White British people are." Really? I've never heard of a ethnic group called "non-white British". That most certainly is not an ethnic group, and I'm amazed that you would claim such an ethnic group exists. But "white" is not an ethnic signifier, it is a "racial" signifier. The only group to use another color terminology for race is Black British, but black British is not necessarily an ethnic group. How do you define Black when it applies to people? It's not an ethnic designator. Is a Black British person from Africa from the same ethnic group as a Black British person from the Caribbean? I don't think so, the African person will have a very distinct and different cultural and social norms to the Caribbean person. Likewise often the term Black in the UK has been used to refer to any person with significant and obvious non-European ancestry living in the UK. Although it is less common these days it used to be common for people of subcontinental Indian origin to refer to themselves as Black. So Black British is not an ethnic group. I believe that British African-Caribbean community is more like an ethnic group. You are conflating census definitions with ethnic groups. Furthermore it is normal for the dominant group not to have an distinct ethnic designator. That's because dominant groups normally see themselves as "normal", while minority groups are seen as "different". If you want to go and find a reliable source that claims that there is a "White British" ethnic group that is comprised of only those people who can "prove" they have no "foreign" ancestors, then please do. We'll include it in the article. But the census definition does not draw this distinction.

What about "English people are not an ethnic group according to Wikipedia, but all British people born in England!" The Wikipedia English people article makes no such claim to my knowledge, and if it did such an exceptional claim would need a reliable source to support it, Exceptional claims require exceptional sources. Obviously there are a great many British people who are born in England who do not consider themselves English.

And "A lot of Asian or Black English people do not identify with English culture but with the culture of their parents country. They call themselves English whilst rejecting England's culture for their ancestral one!!!" So? Who says that to be English one has to subscribe to every element of English culture? Even within England culture is heterogeneous, people in different parts of England engage in different cultural activities. Are you suggesting, for example that unless someone is a member of the Anglican Communion they cannot be English? Or what about if they don't like football or cricket or rugby? Does that invalidate them from being English? What about Morris Dancing? I'm at a loss to understand which elements of English culture are deemed essential to being English. As far as I can see much of the cultural heritage you demand is essential to Englishness is rejected by the vast majority of English people. But that's a digression, this article is not about Englishness.

You ask "What does 'ethnic' mean?" That's an excellent question. It's not very easy to define, but I can give you some points.

• It isn't defined by ancestry or biology. Ethnic groups are not clades and they do not follow any phylogenetic or phylogeographic partitioning. We do not define them though any biological criterion. Kinship may be important in certain types of social organisation, but in anthropology kinship does not necessarily mean a blood relatedness.
• Ethnic groups are social groups, their membership is constantly in flux, they may feel like concrete entities with a fixed boundary to those who are members, but they are not. Who knows their ancestry past a few generations? I consider myself Welsh, but I know that three of my grandparents certainly didn't consider themselves Welsh, they were from England. One may have numerous ancestors who didn't belong to the same ethnic group one belongs to, and be totally unaware of the fact. E.g. see here
• Ethnic groups are transient. We may think that ethnic groups are somehow constant and permanent. But by any objective measure that are transient. There was no English ethnic group before the time of Alfred through to Athelstan, which is when ethnogenesis really started. That ethnogenesis was as much about a common Christian cause against a Pagan opponent as it was about a single ethnic group fighting a "foreign" ethnic group. Even then the Danes in England kept a separate identity at least up until Ethelred the Unready ordered the St. Brice's Day massacre in 1002. But prior to these events there is no evidence that people thought of themselves as "English" so much as Wessexian, or Mercian or Northumbrian. Likewise with the Welsh, the Romans didn't encounter "Welsh" people, they encountered Silures and Ordovices. Indeed even much later we cannot think of a Welsh people, there were people of Gwynedd and people of Deheubarth.
• Ethnic groups are like other identities, they vary with context. I feel Welsh when I am in England, but I feel British when I am in Finland. This is normal, we oppose our identities to the culture/society that is around us. A Black British person from England may well feel more Caribbean when in England, more English when in Scotland, and more British when in the Caribbean or elsewhere abroad. Even from a white English person's perspective this may be true. That person may think of a black English person as not really English when they are in England, but when they meet a Black English person in a foreign country the context will highlight the similarities rather than the differences.
• What constitutes the cultural norms of an ethnic group can and do change constantly. Curry is one of the favourite foods of British people, there are "British Curries", these are British versions of Indian subcontinental foods. Just as Britain has changed the identities of it's recent immigrants, so those immigrants have changed British identity. This is normal and is happening constantly. Don't kid yourself that there is a "normal" British culture. The past is a different country. Do you really believe that you could be transported back to say 1600 and fit in normally? Of course not, we are not our ancestros, and the norms that made up their culture and society are not the norms that make up ours.

But for more see ethnic group. Cheers, Alun (talk) 08:36, 23 January 2009 (UTC)

Chileans don't stop being Chilean just coz they don't dance the cueca! —Preceding unsigned comment added by John Rushton83 (talk • contribs) 22:13, 24 January 2009 (UTC)

Comment: May I make a couple of points?:

1. I've removed the image from the infobox as it was possibly one of the worse examples of anachronism I've ever seen anywhere - to the likes of Shakespeare and the Bruce, Britishness was a concept of the future by a few hundred years! (it's like saying they were part of the European Union!)
2. Most of those depicted in the infobox image did not participate in the 2001 UK census. I've removed them.
3. "White British" is an ethnic group (ethnic groups can have any criteria they want), but we should only be listing and showing people who identify as such; forcing it on people is not an appropriate way forwards: Ethnicity is “a relational concept. That is, the existence of one ethnic group or identity presumes another. Ethnicity, then, is both a matter of how people see themselves and of how they are defined by others” (Mason, 2000). Therefore although one may view themselves as part of the Igbo people, others may see them as Nigerian, Sub-Saharan African, African, Black African or African. Closer to home one may see themselves as ethnically Scouse (if they choose to be then that's their choice) but also Northern, English, British, White British, Nordic, Anglo-Saxon, European or White - ethnic groups are always negotiated and context sensitive.
4. White British is an ethnic group defined by the ONS to provide the most useful and relevant statistical data at the time of that census; it may change at any time, although is unlikely AFAICT.
5. The image should not be restored for WP:BLP reasons.

Thanks, --Jza84 |  Talk  12:55, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

I do actually find it offensive that we are unable to treat White British people in the same way as other British ethnic groups such as Black British or Asian British where they do have images in their info box. However i agree with most of the points made by Jza84 and the image should not be re added. BritishWatcher (talk) 13:09, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

I'm not quite sure how much I agree with, but would be happy to participate in a drive to improve and monitor the article as a link to ONS census analysis. Personally I find just about every reference to "ethnic groups" "offensive", but I accept that a majority might disagree with me on that point. Ghmyrtle (talk) 13:15, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

(<-) I've just removed another image. It had people (like Adam Smith) who did not participate in the 2001 census (though did define himself as British (not White British mind)), and also Kelly Holmes, who I imagine it is fair to say did not list herself as White British. If we want an image in this infobox, then we need to work out a way forwards before we impliment it. If a simillar image is restored again without discussion I will use WP:BLP powers and lock out editors/articles to force discussion. --Jza84 |  Talk  15:46, 14 February 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Major Religion

I have removed Islam and Judaism as major white British religions as they are both obvacly fule as the larger of the 2 relegon is islam which is 2.7 of the population, with a perstentage that low there is no way that there is a large (significant) number of white British muslims. Beyond the 75% is 17% non religion. Alexsau1991 (talk) 21:35, 11 March 2009 (UTC)