Talk:Population transfer in the Soviet Union
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[edit] Old talk
I've always wondered what was the incentive of doing these transports? Creating an enemy? Colonialism? I mean, because racism always seemed rather anti-Machiavellian to me. Elle vécut heureuse à jamais (Be eudaimonic!) 05:01, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
- Well, I don't think there's an easy answer to that question. You can read all about Joseph Stalin, totalitarianism, History of the Soviet Union, History of Russia, the Russian Empire, katorga, russification, etc., and draw your own conclusions. Compare the perspectives of historians such as Richard Pipes with those of others such as Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn. You may also find topics such as Józef Piłsudski's Prometheism to be a point of interest. heqs 06:57, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Why is not..
The ethnic cleansing of Germans from large part of their homeland in 1945 mentioned? Like Köningsberg and the parts that we given to Poland, this was all Soviets doing, hell they even added the whole of Köningsberg region to marvelous SU, and to this day call it as "Kaliningrad"..
[edit] Russian source books
Since this is english wikipedia... is it not unfair and bordering on being contrary to Wikipedia:No original research having this entire article based on those books? There is litle chance of many english speakers being able to verify the information. This is not far off someone coming up with information researched by theselves in government archives (eg. giving archive reference number) --maxrspct in the mud 18:26, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
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- If the content comes from these books, it's probably not WP:OR. While a language barrier of citing Russian books is regrettable, many topics -- especially those concerning Soviet history -- are not adequately documented in English, so citing Russian books may at times be inevitable.
- However, this does not necessarily mean the books you mean belong in the article. There may be other reasons to refer to them. Can you mention any? Digwuren 17:58, 5 July 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Polish
The following piece was removed from the article. `'mikka 18:48, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
- The number of Polish citizens deported to Soviet Russia (Siberia) listed in the Vikipedia as 276,000, is erroneous. Based on Polish sources it is about a million ("W Sowieckim Osaczeniu", p.95, Zbigniew, S. Siemaszko, Polska Fundacja Kulturalna, 1991, ISBN 0 85065 210 3,). Total number of Polish citizens on Soviet territory, including the military, during WWII is estimated at about 1.7 million. I also object to the wording contained in the article:"Some ethnic deportations, eg. of Poles after 1939 from anexed territories of what is now Western Belarus and Western Ukraine (but was then Eastern Poland), were also JUSTIFIED BY POLITICAL/SOCIAL REASONS (capitalization mine). There was no justification for these deportations. There were entire families, small children, old men and women, some of them died during transport. In my box car there was a man 72 years old and two of his grand children, 4 and 6 years old. What "political/social reasons" could be for their deportation? The only reason was that they were Polish citizens. The same criteria were applied by Hitler to Jews. Was this "justified"?
[edit] Imprisonment is not population transfer
Putting a person into a prison or labor camp is a separate topic. It is not population transfer in normal understanding, although a person is moved from place to place. Gulag is covered into separate, big articles. For "related" isssues there is "See also" section. `'Miikka 15:00, 5 July 2007 (UTC)
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- Putting one person into a prison -- sure. Putting hundreds of thousands of persons into a prison, hauling them a thousand kilometres into taiga, and then assigning them forced labour, however, is not only a Stalin's statistic, it is also population transfer, as well as a few other things such as misuse of judicial process.
- Remember, under Stalin, Gulag was a significant industrial producer. Digwuren 17:56, 5 July 2007 (UTC)
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- I was about to revert your removal. Then, I noticed the claim is sourced by the Institute for Historical Review, which certainly does not qualify as WP:RS. Thus, I concur in the removal for now. This may change if a better source is found. Digwuren 18:01, 5 July 2007 (UTC)
- Soviet Union was not the first to use proson labor. Imprisonment is not population transfer. Prisons by definition are away from person's home residence. When released from prison, a person can move back. It is not population transfer, which means forced purposeful change of place of permanent residence. `'Miikka 18:08, 5 July 2007 (UTC)
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- Soviet prison system of the pre-Khruschev era considered forced settlement of unsettled territories a special goal upon itself. This was one of the reason of mass usage of the sentences such as "25+5": 25 years of imprisonment and forced labour followed by five years of internal exile. As one of the many cruel jokes of Stalin, people would theoretically be allowed to return to their former homes after those five years; however, 30 years having passed, and a likelihood of having built a new life within these internal exile years made it still hard if not impossible.
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- My point is not that any of these singular data points alone supports classification of these events as population transfer. Rather, I'm trying to make a point that Gulags were not about punishment as much as about state-planned population placement and forced labour, and in this context, based on *all* the tidbits given, it would seem that a population transfer, administered through the penal system, happened. Digwuren 19:48, 5 July 2007 (UTC)
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[edit] This wansn't just a population transfer
If some 30% of some "antisoviet" ethnicity is moved to far north of Siberia, with winter teperature about -50 Celsium, it looks prety much like genocide. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.118.205.130 (talk) 08:02, 9 January 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Banditism
The current links in the reason columns lead to a Welsh radio show called Bandit. I am not really sure what the term exactly means so I'm hesitant to change it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.141.247.88 (talk) 20:44, 10 September 2008 (UTC)
[edit] What has the fate of POWs got to do with Ethnic Cleansing?
Is there a connection between German POWs and Soviet ethnic cleansing of Germans? The reference used for the statement “almost a million German POWs died in the camps” actually gives a different reason “The immense suffering Germany and her Axis partners had caused surely played a key role in the treatment of enemy POWs”. Which reference supports the death of German POWs was part of ethnic cleansing? Jniech (talk) 16:11, 15 December 2008 (UTC)
