Talk:Livonian Brothers of the Sword

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I'm trying to update and correct this page as much (and scholarly/historcally correct) as possible. I wasn't the original author though.

Regards

Moenstah (student of the department of medieval history, State University Groningen)

I translated most of the info from Polish sources. I'd be happy to work with you on this, but it would be much easier if you would create a Wiki account. Tnx for your input so far, take care. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 19:37, 8 Mar 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Merge

This should be merged with Schwertbrüder under current (English) name. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus ^Talk 3 July 2005 14:26 (UTC)

[edit] Article name

Anyone interested in possibly moving this article to a shorter name? Unlike "Teutonic Knights" for the Prussian branch, there does not seem to be an overwhelmingly accepted term in English for the Livonian branch.

Google (keep in mind wiki-mirrors):

• Livonian Brothers of the Sword: 12,800
• Livonian Knights: 13,100
• Livonian Order: 22,400
• Sword Brothers: 759

Google Books:

• Livonian Brothers of the Sword: 8
• Livonian Knights: 189
• Livonian Order: 256
• Sword Brothers: 138

Google Scholar:

• Livonian Brothers of the Sword: 5
• Livonian Knights: 33
• Livonian Order: 78
• Sword Brothers: 13

Columbia uses "Livonian Brothers of the Sword" and Britannica uses "Order of the Brothers of the Sword". Britannica 1911 used, among others, "Livonian Knights"[1], "Knights of the Sword" [2],[3], and "Brethren of the Sword"[4],[5].

In some books I have in my posession, Norman Davies uses Brothers of the Sword in Europe: A History; Nicholas V. Riasanovsky uses Livonian order in A History of Russia; Polish Scientific Publishers uses Livonian Order of the Knights of the Sword in History of Poland; Desmond Seward uses Sword Brethren in The Monks of War: The Military Religious Orders; William Urban uses Swordbrothers in The Teutonic Knights: A Military History, while Eric Christensen uses Sword-Brothers in The Northern Crusades; David Kirby uses Livonian Knights of the Sword and Livonian Order in Northern Europe in the Early Modern Period: The Baltic World 1492-1772; and Oscar Halecki uses Sword Bearers in A History of Poland.

Based on the Google Books and Scholar results, "Livonian Order" and "Livonian Knights" seem to be the most common terminology used in English publications. Olessi 19:35, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

Livonian Knights would have the advantage of being in the same system as Teutonic Knights.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus ^Talk 20:10, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

Why no mention of the Battle of St. Matthew's Day, which could be one of their more important victories? PatGallacher 11:44, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Fix needed

I'm sorry to point out that here is another a bit messed up article on WP. first of all, the Livonian order was no state like suggested in the article, the state was called Livonian Confederation AKA Old Livonia. Livonian Brothers of the Sword , established in 1201 as Fratres Militiae Christi was the name of the order until 1235. After the defeat in Battle of Saule the Fratred Militiae Christi or the Livonian Brothers of the Sword in 1235/7 joined the the Teutonic Order (Ordo Domus Santae Mariae Teuronicum). Hence forth the Teutonic Order's new Baltic branch has become known as Livonain Order. So there is the difference, there was Livonian Brothers of the Sword and thereafter there was the Livonian order that was in alliance with or a part of the Teutonic Order. These things should be fixed up on WP I think. The current article should be about the order until 1235 and Livonian Order, the current redirect should be about the order's history from 1235 on until it's end during the Livonian War.--Termer (talk) 22:13, 17 November 2007 (UTC)

PS. Also, the insignia was different, the Livonian Brothers of the Sword used the red sword and cross, the Livonian order used just a cross like the Teutonic Order--Termer (talk) 22:27, 17 November 2007 (UTC)

Yes, indeed you are correct. I've updated the template Template:History Timeline of Estonia with Livonian Confederation and moved it to that article. Martintg (talk) 00:51, 18 November 2007 (UTC)