Talk:Chauvinism

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Contents 1 Chauvin 2 Usage 3 heterochauvinism 4 Cleanup 5 Removed content, feminist b* 6 Emtomology 7 Male vs. female 8 Female chauvinism 9 Female chauvinism 2 10 In fiction 11 Undue weight. 12 Female chauvinism 3 12.1 More on generality of usage 13 Chauvinism as language

[edit] Chauvin

I though Chauvin was a real person.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 200.191.188.xxx (talk • contribs) 16:12, 3 December 2001

He was. I'll add some info. --Dmerrill

[edit] Usage

I modified slightly the section mentioning male chauvinism, which as written implied that the word chauvinism now generally means male chauvinism. AFAIK the word still has its original political meanings; I hear it used often enough, and of course it's hyphenated umpteen different ways at the bottom there. Male chauvinism may be its most frequent contemporary usage, but always as modified by the world male, never just as 'chauvinism.' 142.167.175.124 22:01, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] heterochauvinism

This is a new term I have recently heard. I think it is worth adding. It refers to the assumptions and oppression inherent in the language and behavior of heterosexual people without regard to homosexuals.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.214.25.101 (talk) 21:48, 29 May 2004

A little humour for you:

www.allman.tk—Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.101.228.4 (talk) 14:10, 22 September 2005

[edit] Cleanup

Someone authorized to, please remove the inappropriate comment (and probably joke site also) as they are pretty clearly against WP:TPG. I'm not quite clear on the policy of deleting other people's comments on talk pages or I'd do it myself. 142.167.175.124 22:09, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Removed content, feminist b*

I removed this twice so far:

Women should avoid labeling their male partners as "chauvinist pigs" unless their male partners are truely derogatory towards women. The loose application of the term "chauvinist pig" may highly offend a non-chauvinist male and put the female in bad light. It may even cause the female appear to be an overbearing "feminist bitch".

This content is not encyclopedic. It reads as advice and isn't sourced. It doesn't help the reader understand the term any better. Any insult or pejoritive falls under this, so the information isn't unique either. This content needs to be refined and sourced if to have a chance at all in the article. Please explain these changes more here before editing further. Thanks.-Andrew c 17:51, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Emtomology

'"The Old Guard dies but does not surrender!", implying blind and unquestioned zeal to one's country [or other group of reference]."

This seems to me to imply unconditional rather than "unquestioned" dedication.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 70.177.191.109 (talk • contribs) 18:46, 12 August 2007.

[edit] Male vs. female

Can we discuss this on talk? Saying "I've heard of it" is not a valid reliable source on wikipedia. Making a bold edit is fine, but if it gets reverted, the best thing to do is to talk it out and reach a compromise, not to get into an edit war. If your issue is with saying the term is only used by misandric researchers, then we can adjust that, but I take issue with saying "female chauvinism" is a "Frequent contemporary uses of the term in English" on the same level as "male chauvinism". A third issue is the "female chauvinism" section discusses another use of the term, in that it is a woman who "replicate male chauvinism and sexist stereotypes about women".-Andrew c ^[talk] 14:34, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

Andrew C. -- I appreciate your attempt to be diplomatic, but accusing me of starting an edit war seems to be the pot calling the kettle black. You reverted my edit without either first discussing it on the talk page or attempting to find some sort of compromise -- exactly what you accuse me of doing. I'm not trying to be stubborn, but as I've already explained, the sentence as it stood was misleading. Minaker 01:20, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

I've made an edit to try and address my concerns. What do you think?-Andrew c ^[talk] 01:42, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

You've got me rolling my eyes in exasperation over here. For the record, I am not attempting to cite my own knowledge as a reliable source. My point is that I am not a misandry researcher, nor are any of the people I've ever heard discussing the topic, and before you jump on me about this, I KNOW that that would be considered original research -- I'm just trying to illustrate the fact that the term is not known only to "a few misandry researchers" as this article previously stated; I found that statement misleading, and in a rather absurd manner. Frankly, I think your most recent edit is much better than the article's previous diction, not because it's a compromise, but because it makes more sense than both the other version and my own edit. So kudos about that, definitely. By the way, regarding placement of new topics on talk pages (top versus bottom of the page)-- I have read directly conflicting rules on this (maybe people are editing rules pages with false information?), and by now I'm helplessly confused on this particular matter. It doesn't help my confusion that I've noticed people switching back and forth. Are you sure this is the rule, that new topics go on the bottom? Not that it's a big deal, but I would like a definitive answer. Minaker 11:55, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

Just backing up Andrew's statement - new conversations go on the bottom of the page. See WP:TALK#Layout--Cailil ^talk 17:44, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Female chauvinism

Hi all The term 'female chauvinism' is nonsensical in the manner in which it is used in this article. Whilst I'm sure Ariel Levy's book has sold well, and is being promoted throughout this article, it does not constitute common use. We should not perpetuate her misuse and misunderstanding of the term. 'Female chauvinist' either means a female who is biased against the other gender OR (more correctly) it means someone, almost by definition male, who is biased towards women and not the twisting of words and genders presented here. I've not read her book, but disagree with her justification of usage as heard in a radio interview. I'm sure it's interesting but please promote it elsewhere.

If I get no response, I'm happy to go through and remove/edit the references to make her usage a lesser point. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.168.73.136 (talk) 11:07, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

I do not believe we are giving Levy's book undue weight. I would not want to see that section expanded (while other sections I could imagine being expanded). I have made one slight edit to the lead to hopefully address weight concerns.-Andrew c ^[talk] 15:59, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

I think the problem with the weighting is that it's mentioned in the first paragraph at all. It really should be relegated to "Female Chauvinism" rather than implying her use is correct or common usage in the first paragraph. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.217.28.39 (talk) 03:23, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

I am proposing an edit to the defintion of female chauvinism in the article. In the first paragraph, female chauvinism will not be mentioned as it is not in common enough usage to be given that weight.

In the section on female chauvinism the definition should be limited to "the unreasoned belief that women are superior to men," it's correct definition. Ms. Levy's book will be reserved for that section but will be used as an example of female chauvinism as it is properly defined.

Ms. Levy's use of the term presumes that females cannot be chauvanistic on their own account- essentially that true female chauvinism cannot exist. Her usage implies that only men can be chauvinistic in gender issues, and that women are only capable of chauvinism when they replicate male chauvinism. She is therefore arguing that women, if they are enlightened, are superior to men. And that's classical chauvinism.

Using her re-definition is improper, sexist and POV.

I've read the discussion history of this article and I want to make this abundantly clear; I don't intend to edit war on this and neither should anyone who disagrees with me. I won't be posting anything even remotely approaching Speedy Delete territory, so my edits should be allowed to stand pending an actaul debate of the issue, just as I'm allowing what I believe to be an incorrect and possibly POV article to stand to give you a chance to defend it. If you can clearly articulate why I'm wrong or a possible compromise edit, that's fine. I expect comments before I post the edits (in about 4 days) and that any edit to my edits be announced in advance allowing me sufficient time to respond. Simply editing or reverting without discusion is a sign of, at best, ideological bias.

Here are the proposed edits;

First paragraph:

Chauvinism (pronounced /ˈʃoʊvɨnɪzəm/) is extreme and unreasoning partisanship on behalf of a group to which one belongs, especially when the partisanship includes malice and hatred towards a rival group. Jingoism is a similar term of British derivation. A frequent^[1] contemporary use of the term in English is male chauvinism, which refers to the belief that males are superior to females.

Female Chauvinism section:

[edit] Female chauvinism 2

Female chauvinism refers to the unreasoned belief that females are superior to males. A recent example of female chauvinism is the usage of the term in the title of Ariel Levy's book, Female Chauvinist Pigs. In her book Ms. Levy uses the term, and particularly its derogatory form, to describe females who replicate male sexist stereotypes. This usage presumes, without a reasoned framework, that women are superior enough to men to not practice chauvinism on their own account. ref>Female Chauvinist Pigs: Women and the Rise of Raunch Culture, Ariel Levy, 2006, ISBN 0743284283</ref>

According to Nathanson and Young, what they see as 'ideological' feminism is chauvinistic as well as misandric. They assert that many so-called 'ideological' feminists have claimed that "women are psychologically, morally, spiritually, intellectually, and biologically superior to men".^[2] They also assert that these feminists consider knowledge created by women to be superior to that created by men.^[3]

Wendy McElroy claims that in some gender feminist views, all men are considered irreconcilable rapists, wife-beating brutes, and useless as partners or fathers to women.^[4] McElroy and Camille Paglia claim that gender feminists view women as innocent victims who never make irresponsible or morally questionable choices.^[5] Other feminists such as Kate Fillion have questioned the idea that women are always innocent victims and men always the guilty victimizers when the interests of each collide with those of the other.^[6]

the egoist

[edit] In fiction

I removed the following:

• Death Note A fictional story in which the protagonist is sexist to the extreme and manipulates several women. Also, the protagonist's girlfriend constantly summits to her beloved's will and dresses in a Lolita-style fashion. The antagonists are the ones who treat women more or less normally.
• Leslie's Journal A girl writes in her journal about her abusive boyfriend who sees girls as sex toys. The boy in the story goes a far as killing one of the girls.
• A Doll's House The men in this story treat a woman as a plaything and her husband asks her to do tricks for money. In the end, the husband tries to better himself, but is too late.
• Saving Francesca A girl joins a newly-coed school along with about a dozen or so other girls.

We need a reliable source to cite that makes the claim that these works either depict chauvinism or are chauvinistic. I am also not sure if we need a list of works like this because it could be quite extensive and not encyclopedic (wikipedia is not an indiscriminate collection of information). But let's work on sourcing this content first. -Andrew c ^[talk] 01:11, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

I think you're getting ahead of yourself. That list is flawed regardless of additional citation. The editor who added them is not addressing her or himself to the article at hand.

A better statement of policy is to enforce the actual definition of the term male chauvinism and not to let it be used interchangably with the term sexism. The works as described do not address the theme of male chauvinism but that of sexism. In none of the descriptions is any character credited with holding an unreasoned belief in male superiority. Instead the male characters are treating women badly for reasons unknown or for reasons far more complicated (psycho-sexually in at least three of these instances, involving extremely complex paraphelias such as sadism and latent pedophilia) than a simple ideological and unreasoned belief.

The difference between male chauvinism, sexism directed toward women and misogyny are very real and the issue needs to be clarified in this article. Being chauvinistic implies a belief system, sexism implies a pattern of behavior, misogyny implies an emotional reaction. Simply put a male chauvinist or even a misogynist can think or feel whatever he or she (yes a women can be a misoginist and no, she can't be a male chauvinist) want, but if they do not act upon those thoughts or feelings then they are not appropriately described as sexist.

This is an encyclopedia. When you are providing the meaning of a term, precision in language equals precision in thought.

the egoist —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.189.45.144 (talk) 12:44, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Undue weight.

The "female chauvinism" section dwarfs the "male chauvinism" section, which seems odd and a case of undue weight. Is there some interest in flushing the section out, or trimming the "female chauvinism" section? Blackworm (talk) 06:13, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

I don't see the female section being too long as it is, so it seems like we should just expand the male section. I'll tag it as such. With regards to trimming, my only concern is if McElroy and Paglia actually use the term "chauvinism" or not in their criticism of "gender feminists". If not, it would be original research to place their criticism under the heading of "chauvinism". It appears Nathanson and Young do use the "ch-" word. -Andrew c ^[talk] 14:44, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

Agreed. It's ludicrous that even that much has been written about a virtually unknown "phenomenon"--I've never even heard of the term "female chauvinist." Certainly it's not common usage--it reads like a pro forma attempt to counterbalance "male chauvinism" which is of course much more common. 64.132.218.4 (talk) 20:16, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Female chauvinism 3

The term female chauvinism seems to have some currency. It was mentioned in the LA Times in 1999, on iFeminists and in the Harvard Crimson in 2004, in the "fair and balanced" *cough* Fox News in 2005, etc. Ariel Levy published a book on the topic in 2005 which was reviewed in the New York Times. JCDenton2052 (talk) 20:11, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

Please add these citations to demonstrate the use of the term. LotLE×talk 20:17, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

Actually, these occasional usages still appear to be rare neologisms with conflicting meanings (mostly not the definition given in the body text). I'll restore the tag until/unless general usage is shown. LotLE×talk 20:20, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

Take a look at modern definitions of chauvinism. Most include something along the lines of excessive or prejudiced loyalty to a particular gender, group, or cause or excessive or prejudiced support for one’s own cause, group, or sex. Only the definitions in older dictionaries specifically refer to the male sex/gender. JCDenton2052 (talk) 20:27, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

I understand that the term "chauvinism" has a general meaning that can be understood if preceded by an adjective. I find it dubious that the compound term "female chauvinism" actually has widespread usage as opposed to being an occasional neologism. I could likewise understand the meanings of novel coinages like "Clown chauvinism" (dunno if it would be pro- or con-clowns), "Blue-Eyed Chauvinism", "Brand Chauvinism", or many others. While I would understand what some commentator might be getting at with a neologism, that doesn't make the usage notable automatically. LotLE×talk 20:34, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

The phrase has 7500 hits on Google.[1] I'd call that widespread enough. Out of your three terms you suggest as appropriate analogies, two of them have ZERO entries on Google, and the last, "brand chauvinism," has 111 hits. These are clearly not on the same level of notability as "female chauvinism," thus your analogies fail. Blackworm (talk) 21:02, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

Hmmm, I get 7440 for "female chauvinism" and 109,000 for "male chauvinism". Obviously, the clowns and stuff was merely meant as a structural analogy (I didn't know if there would be zero hits, but I definitely wouldn't expect many). As far as a couple things of more likely usage: "american chauvinism" (4060); "jewish chauvinism" (2610); "french chauvinism" (3440).

I wouldn't put too much weight on the "Google Test" either way, but it seems to suggest WP:UNDUE weight at least, for such a long discussion, even if not rule out the neologism. It doesn't look like the "female chauvinism" uses are very consistent in meaning though... the pattern for is pretty obvious (male->female), but that doesn't mean the variant has a general common meaning. LotLE×talk 21:29, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

Perhaps you could point out two conflicting definitions of female chauvinism. And the only possible reason for it meeting WP:UNDUE is because the section on male chauvinism is too short. If you feel that strongly about it, you could consider expanding that section. JCDenton2052 (talk) 02:11, 8 July 2008 (UTC)

Take a look at the article body. Or also at the links you give at the beginning of this section. LotLE×talk 05:07, 8 July 2008 (UTC)

FWIW, while articles need not be strictly about scholarly matters, Google Scholar (or citeseer, etc) often give a better sense of longer-term and more "serious" usage of terms or concepts than does regular Google and the changing blogosphere. There the skew between male/female chauvinism is much stronger: "male chauvinism" (4790); "female chauvinism" (169). Among the first few hits, the latter term often seems to occur in scare quotes; i.e. the author describes "female chauvinism" as hypothetical rather than the actual subject of writing. But there are definitely a few scholarly uses of the disquotational sense as well. It still makes me think of WP:WEIGHT though. LotLE×talk 21:36, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

You haven't supported your claims of a "neologism" with any sources, so I'd ask you to stop repeating the claim. The phrase was used even in the 19th century.[2] Google Scholar does indicate a lop-sided usage of the phrase in academia, but then again Google Books notes 1076 hits for "male chauvinism"[3] and 527 hits for "female chauvinism."[4] The phrase is used in over 500 published books. It warrants mention. Blackworm (talk) 21:57, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

"Neologism" isn't a criticism, it just means that the term is new... which it is. Take a look at your link, BTW. It says that the journal, The Archictural Forum, was founded as a in 1892. It's hard to see the publication date of the article imaged, but the text you show mentions a 1969 event, so is at some point later than that (perhaps even in the last year or two).

Anyway, I haven't written that the phrase "female chauvinism" should not be mentioned in this article. I've suggested some WP:WEIGHT and WP:OR concerns, but that's a different thing. LotLE×talk 22:08, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

[edit] More on generality of usage

Hmmm... trying some dictionaries, I see:

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/male+chauvinism

http://dictionary.die.net/male%20chauvinism

Neither has anything equivalent for "female chauvinism". I can find a few hits on '"female chauvinism" definition' (answers.com, etc.) but they all seem to be syndication of WP content... usually this very article. LotLE×talk 22:17, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

Again, you repeat your assertion that it is a neologism, without any source to support your claim. I claim it is clearly not a neologism, having come into common and academic use around the same time "male chauvinism" did.[5] I therefore ask you again to stop referring to it as neologism, or provide sources claiming it is a neologism. Otherwise, it is YOU who are engaging in original research. You tagged the sentence: "Female chauvinism is a term used to describe the attitude that women are superior to men" first as "dubious," and now despite 500 books mentioning female chauvinism, you claim it WP:OR to acknowledge the phrase and how it's used? Blackworm (talk) 22:34, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

I'm not sure what your point is about the word "neologism"... you may have noticed that I linked above to the perfectly lovely neologism "blogosphere." I've also coined a fair number in my own writings (none that entered widespread usage yet, sadly :-)). However, it does look like your link has some academic uses in the 1970s, which is earlier than I would have expected. Moreover, I'm convinced that the definition given in the article is not dubious, but I still feel in needs a citation (hence the current tag). My WP:OR concern, and more importantly WP:UNDUE, isn't really about the definition alone, but rather about the overly long section devoted to it, that tries to pull together a variety of rather different uses and almost dominates the article (same sentiment you expressed on this page a couple months ago, actually). LotLE×talk 22:41, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

[Edit conflict.] My point was only that it doesn't apply, not whether the description is good or bad. I'm only concerned that someone may see the "citation needed" tag and remove the entire section believing it to be based on nothing. That said, I'm satisfied that you don't seem to want that, and we pretty much agree on the weight. Perhaps you could try editing the section to address your weight concerns? Blackworm (talk) 22:53, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

Looking at the earlier discussion, I think you misunderstood my use of the "N word" there. JCDenton2052 had given several links to newspapers that used the terms "female chauvinism". However, each of them used it somewhat differently, and each seemed to be a sense coined by that specific author. I don't see the N word as having any relevance in article space (for this article anyway), so concerns about WP:OR around it are a bit misplaced. LotLE×talk 22:49, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

The word "neologism" has been wrongly used in my interactions with editors in the past to claim that a common phrase is not encyclopedic, or not notable. Then, like now, the claim of a neologism was false. Blackworm (talk) 22:53, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Chauvinism as language

An editor posted the below addition. I think it points at an important area for discussion that is worth including in this article. However, as written it is a very impressionistic description of one (interesting, but not general) example of linguistic chauvinism. Also, the tone and wording is very awkward and unencyclopedic.

I think that in its existing form, it does more harm than good to put on the article, but hopefully we can tighten it up and include some discussion of the concept of linguistic chauvinism. LotLE×talk 03:43, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

In multiracial countries Singapore and Malaysia, langauge can be a sensitive issue. Someone studied at Chinese school is expected to be insulted by someone studied at English schools, as "Chinese chauvinist". Associate Professor Chew Cheng Hai, tutor of Singapore Senior Minister Lee Kuan Yew in Chinese language for the past 24 years said he does not see himself as either a Chinese chauvinist or a racist. "I don't think today there are any extreme elements left among the Chinese-educated. I am more concerned about chauvinism among the English-educated. We should all put the interests of Singapore first." He disagrees with sentiments that there is an over-emphasis on the Chinese language, which might undermine the Singapore identity, with English as the neutral, common language. [6]